Honesty means
living in agreement with the truth
Ilse Beumer in conversation with Francis Lucille

What do you ask a man who has written a book in which the answers to all questions become clear? In the book 'Eternity NOW!' Francis Lucille covers all areas, but inasmuch as the theme of this 'Amigo' is Truth and Honesty he is ready to say something about that in this interview: 'We'll act as if the book doesn't exist!' So the first twenty minutes we chatter about what truth could be, the relation with honesty and reality, during which time Francis says among other things: 'We should look at every situation as new, in its truth and actuality. We should allow ourselves to be lead by reality and not by concepts or ideas that we have about reality'. The theory of advaita is finally also only a concept. Talking further like this we come to all kinds of analytical and theoretical explanations of this theme until a waiter brings us tea. During this pause Francis remarks in a serious but friendly way: 'The subject is too complicated. In an interview the questions come from a theme intended for an article. That is very different from real questions that rise out of the interest of the person. The motivation is very different.' Well, there we are then. We come to the final conclusion that Francis finds it difficult to be interviewed and that I can only ask a question if I really have a question. It seems that just drinking tea is a better alternative for this moment. We decide to begin again fresh and new. But that still doesn't work for just an ordinary interviewer sitting across from Francis Lucille. So sitting cozily together there are absolutely no more questions. And, every time I have a question it relates to something that has been said earlier, therefore not fresh and new. However, just as I was about to give up hope, just like that a conversation started about how one can live in a practical way all the notions that one has understood in the past.

Francis: Honesty means that you live in agreement with the truth.

Amigo: That sounds very logical, but how do you live that in daily life?

FL: You apply it in your life, in the decisions you make; in the way you live your life. Situations may arise where there still seems to be a kind of conflict between the old (egoistic) point of view that you take in a situation and what would be fair and harmonious. We should act in accordance with truth, by being honest with our understanding of truth. If we have an understanding of truth but nevertheless act differently we are not honest.

Amigo: It happens sometimes that on the one hand you want to do something, but on the other hand your mind tells you precisely the opposite. That feels like a conflict.

FL: Yes, but sometimes it is not even a conflict. Sometimes we do things out of habit, out of fear or desire while our higher reasons tells us not to do them. Therefore, it is very important to follow our higher reasons.

The path of harmony

Amigo: Then you have to know the difference between the two of them.

FL: If we can, we have freedom. Following our understanding of the truth or not, these moments of freedom and choice are very important. The more we choose the path of harmony, truth and justice instead of the way of ignorance, the more our conviction grows that consciousness is impersonal or divine. In a certain way this strengthens our conviction of the truth and that paves a way to the possibility of choosing the path of harmony in new situations instead of the path of ignorance.

So you will trust it more. When you apply the truth in your daily life, it feels good inside, so it makes you happy. In strange ways it makes you happy. It may still be terrible on the outside for a while, but – and that is the beauty of it – sooner or later the universe will give you a beautiful response. Because, when you are one with the Tao, when you flow with the flow of justice in your actions, then there is a positive, beautiful and miraculous response from life, from the universe. Thus, if you apply this more and more you will experience an improvement in your relationships not only with other people but also in the events of your life. Serendipity: events will come up that simplify your life. That is how we know that consciousness is universal and not personal. We receive the answer from the outside world in the form of gifts, miracles and fortuitous happenings and from the inside in the form of happiness and joy. There is no difference between inside and outside. If you are inwardly established in harmony, then this not only creates happiness inside, but also happiness in the world. Circumstances don't seem to change; however they do. When you are on the side of justice, then universe is on your side.

Knowing to be the truth

Amigo: And will the universe be against you otherwise?

FL: Yes, but not because the universe is mean. You have to understand the truth and every event in your life. The purpose is to take you to truth. Once you are in line with truth, life is simply a celebration. Life thus has a double purpose: to know truth, to be knowingly truth and to celebrate truth. That is the meaning of life. Therefore once you are in line with truth, that what remains is celebration. Before you are in line with truth, what needs to be done is to realign yourself with truth.
To keep a donkey on the path, justice uses both the stick and the carrot. If the donkey strays from the path, he gets the stick.

Amigo: And the carrot?

FL: The carrot is the desire for truth. It is that energy of desire that keeps the donkey going. This energy of desire will take the donkey home. The purpose of setbacks is to keep the donkey on the road. Thus, if you remain on the road you flow on the flow of harmony. If you stray from that, then… (laughs)
People often think there will be no desires anymore once we are established in truth. That is not true. Desires keep arising they are innocent. There is no attachment in these desires. In other words: if a desire is fulfilled, it is celebration. Like on a nice day together with your family. One might then say: ''hey, lets go to the sea!' There is nothing wrong with that, it is a creative desire, it is just celebration. However: sometimes the fulfillment of a desire is prevented. Ignorance takes charge of the desire. We become attached to it thinking that happiness depends upon the fulfillment of the desire. Then we take a plunge. Namely, the universe may or may not fulfill our wish so that the desire remains, but in both situations it will give us the lesson that there is in fact no happiness there. We are disappointed either way. Whereas if the desire arises and we just say: 'Well, it would be nice, if it is possible we will do it', without any attachment, then we enjoy it. If it is not possible, then we just don't do it. But something will happen in universe that will bring this desire to fruition. In that moment the desire is even more fulfilled, possibly in different but better ways than we had anticipated.

I'll tell you a story about that. I had a good friend in France. We were both truth lovers. He often came to visit me in the evening after work. We used to speak about truth and meditate. At a certain moment I moved to America, but I went back to France for a few days every year. Once when I was back in France I called my friend to visit him. His wife told me that he was on vacation and that it thus wasn't possible. After that I traveled to the south of France. One afternoon I took a walk there. The idea was to walk to the cathedral, the highest point and the holiest place in the city. When I entered I saw the church almost empty on a weekday. I walk in the direction of the altar and at the point where the two lines in the church cross, the cathedral door opens and someone else comes walking towards the altar. In the twilight this person seems familiar to me, but I do not recognize him immediately. I suspected that it was someone whom I had known in my youth because I was raised in that place. So, I walked towards that person and as we approach each other we recognize each other: it was my friend! His story was that his train had technical problems and that he had to wait a few hours in the city. He wanted to take a walk and also chose the cathedral. And that's how we met that very moment. A few days earlier I had the unfulfilled desire to see him. It was an impersonal desire that flowed forth out of love and friendship; we both loved the truth. The desire's fulfillment was postponed just for God to make the fulfillment more majestic in the cathedral, under beautiful circumstances.
I was not waiting; I also did not expect anything. This is an example of how we receive proof of the universe, of universal consciousness. We receive it from various directions. Not only in the form of joy, but also in events, from the world, from the universal harmony.

In the beginning it may seem as if terrible things are happening, but finally everything will turn out well. That is also the beauty of it. Another friend's house burned down. He was not too well insured, but he was a truth lover and accepted it with open heart and did not complain. He was an artist who was sponsored by a very generous lady. She proposed to pay the difference between what the insurance would cover and the actual costs. It came out of the blue, because it involved a large amount of money. So, when you trust life, you will receive this beautiful confirmation. That requires for you that when you come to the crossroads where roads separate from each other, you choose the path of truth. Be true to the path of truth, true to your understanding. That is honesty.
We are not required to be perfect. We are required only to be of good will, to do our best. That's all we can do. Sometimes next day it may turn out that the decisions we made, although we were of good will, were wrong. Then we should take corrective actions, to change them and do all that is required. In all of that we were of good will. We were trying to be true to the truth. We were honest. It is very important not to have a separation between our understanding of the truth and the way we act, think and believe.

Loving truth

Amigo: How do we know what is loving, intelligent and correct?

FL: I don't know how I know, but I do know when I know it. When it's loving, beautiful and right, we feel it. For instance, just as in relationship with friends, if you have said something annoying to a friend, perhaps unwillingly, then your friend need not even say something about it, but we feel that something is not right. Something tells us.

Amigo: What about the relation then between truth, honesty and what we think?

FL: Thinking is just a tool. It depends from where the thinking starts. If it comes out of ignorance (from me as a person) then it is wrong. Further, there is nothing wrong with thinking, but anything is wrong with the source of the thinking because if thinking comes from untruth then it leads to big problems. If the thinking sprouts out of truth, out of the experience of what we are, from being or from the situation itself, then it is very different. Then it is just a tool and can be lovely.
Therefore it is also a misunderstanding to suppress thinking. That is too totalitarian. We need to go to truth and intelligence and thinking is part of the process that transforms the mind. We need to be convinced, and in order to reach this conviction to erase the old belief systems we need to use thought. To unwind the mind we need to use the same tools that twisted it. Imagine that you were told as a child that babies are born out of cabbage plants. At a certain point you need to re-examine this belief and eradicate it. At the very latest when your first child is born! This concept has to be understood and eradicated by means of reasoning. Naturally we don't remember the belief in such simple things (just as with the belief in Santa Claus) anymore, but nevertheless we had to correct these wrong beliefs.

Amigo: I remember that even small lies could make me very angry.

FL: We don't like to be lied to we resent it. So you see: we love the truth!

[interview: Ilse Beumer]